Up The Road

What size Madone should I get?

With the integrated seat mast, the new Madone may raise some questions about fitting. The new Madone’s seat mast is different from most, because it can’t be cut. Instead, all height adjustment comes from sliding the seat cap up or down on the mast, and by choosing a standard or long seat cap.

2008_trek_new_madone_seat_mast_an_2

Above, the top photo shows a few of the new Madones ridden in the Trek 100 this past weekend. The second one is a close up of the seat installed on the seat cap on the frame. The bottom photo shows the frame’s seat mast with the seat cap removed. You can see the height graduation marks. The top one must be covered by the seat cap; that’s the maximum height. Incidentally, the top of the frame’s seat mast is completely closed. Don’t cut that off; it not only keeps a lot of water out of the frame, it also contributes to the strength of the mast.

2008_trek_new_madone_standard_and_2

On the left is the long seat cap (optional), and on the right is the standard seat cap (included).

With that understanding of the seat mast and seat cap system, here’s a table showing the range of saddle heights you can achieve with the two seat cap lengths. Click on the thumbnail image to get the full size version.

2008_trek_new_mdaone_seat_height__2

Comments

tbdean

tbdean asks:
Measured to top of saddle? What if you don't have a standard saddle?

I currently have a size 58 2004 Trek 1000. Will a size 58 Madone Pro fit me?

Damon Rinard answers: Correct, we're assuming standard saddle height (usually about 4 to 5 cm from the rails to the top), so you're right: a different saddle height will affect the ends of the range.

If you currently ride a 58 cm Trek, we anticipate you'll ride a 58 cm New Madone too. There are two things to check: saddle height (check the Saddle Height table above), and Frame Stack (see "Designing the New Madone" for an illustration of how frame stack is measured). The frame stack is roughly the same between most existing Trek road bikes and the new Madone "Pro Fit", while frame stack is about 30mm higher on the new Madone "Performance Fit". So you have a choice: if you have less than 30 mm of headset spacers, you'll fit best on the Madone "Pro Fit" geometry. If you have 30 mm or more of headset spacers, you could fit either the "Pro Fit" or "Performance Fit" geometry.

Francis

If I ride a seat height of 68.7cm and a top tube + stem length total of 62.5cm, what size would that put me. I know it is somewhere between 50cm and 52cm but I am worried about toe overlap and dont want a stem too short, maybe around 100mm. Is there a way this can fit. Again im most worried about toe overlap. What size and will the stem length and toe overlap be an issue. Thanks

LK

LK asks: How about a frame geometry chart for the 64. Lots of hype on the site, not much data.

Answer: The 64 cm geometry is listed in the table under "Madone Performance Fit", but not under "Madone Pro Fit". It's easy to miss, the 64 is on row 8 or so, not on the bottom row. Thanks for your comments, we're doing our best to add more data to the site!

Greg Armstrong

Greg asks: When will the new Madone be available to order with a project one color design?

Answer: Answer: No plans yet for the new Madone for this model year, sorry! Project 1 is still available for current Madones. -Damon Rinard

Damon Rinard

Hi Francis,
According to the Seat Height Table here (http://trekroad.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/06/05/2008_trek_new_mdaone_seat_height__2.gif), a seat height of 68.7 cm could be achieved on a new Madone in the following sizes: 50 cm (with the optional tall seat post cap), 52 and 54 cm (with the standard seat post cap).

As you mention, there's more to fit than seat height: there's also reach. To match your current "top tube plus stem" of 62.5, have a look at the geometry table here (http://trekroad.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/06/05/2008_trek_new_madone_geometry_2.gif) to compare "Effective Top Tube" lengths. The 50, 52 and 54 cm new Madones could match your current reach by using 11, 10 and 9 cm stems, respectively.

For toe overlap, you need to compare "front center" to your current bike. Front center is the distance between bottom bracket center and front hub center. It isn't on the table, but I looked them up for you: the 50, 52 and 54 cm new Madones have front centers of 57.5, 57.7 and 58.1 cm, respectively. You could find a "minimum" front center by measuring your current bike's, then subtracting any space between your shoe and tire. Then choose a new Madone size that has a front center at least that big, or bigger, to avoid toe overlap.

Just a comment on toe overlap: During normal riding we don't steer enough to bring the tire into range, but when we do it can be annoying. Some bikes avoid toe overlap at the expense of bad handling geometry, so don't be afraid of a slight overlap; you might enjoy riding the bike more than a similar machine without overlap. Best bet is to try various bikes at your local Trek dealer.


Lee McDaniel

Lee asks: Can you tell me which Madones/Trek bikes are still made in America?

Answer: Bikes using Trek’s patented OCLV carbon technology are hand made only in Waterloo, Wisconsin, USA. Any time you see an OCLV label on a Trek bike, it’s hand made here, from the ground up, including all OCLV Madones (5.1 through 6.9 models).

Trek does offer TCT ("Trek Carbon Technology") bikes, which are made in Asia using Trek USA engineering and design. These frames meet all Trek test standards, at value price points. TCT bridges the gap between aluminum and OCLV carbon, both in ride quality and price. –Damon Rinard

Jhonny

When is the new 2008 Madone 6.9 Pro frameset going to be available for sale? What's the retail price? Your response is appreciated. Thanks.

Answer: Frame sets (actually, "fuselages", since they include not only frame and fork but also headset and seat cap) are currently planned to be available for first delivery as follows:
Madone 5.2 (Pro and Performance): late July
Madone 6.9 Performance: September
Madone 6.9 Pro: October

Please check with your Trek dealer or the trekbikes.com web site soon for pricing.

PJ

PJ asks: My bike set up is very similar to a previous post (Francis), with a seat height of 682 and top tube plus stem of 620. All indications are that I would fit a 52CM new Madone Pro. My concern is that my current bikes stack height is 50.5 - same as a new Madone 50CM. My stem is set 2" below saddle height. That given, will the 52CM Madone Pro (stack height of 51.7) allow a drop of 2" from saddle height on the 52CM Madone - keeping the 682 seat height?

Answer: Yes. In CAD, I sketched a 52 cm Madone "Pro Fit" with your 682 mm saddle height, sketched in a stem 100 mm long (that's a guess) with a 7 degree angle and one 5 mm headset spacer. With the stem installed angling "down". The result is that the drop is 68 mm, about 17 mm more drop than your current 2 inches (2" = 51 mm). So you could install a few spacers on a 52 cm Madone "Pro Fit" to match your current bike. The CAD sketch is here: http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1391/533453392_7a379c2151.jpg?v=0

Since the Madone "Performance Fit" has a 30 mm taller head tube, your handlebars on that might be around 15 mm higher than on your current bike. -Damon Rinard

FENECH

Hi guys, I send you that message from France and I am very happy to see that finally "tall" guys are considered! I am 6.4 and I need a big frame, so I probably need a 64. But here is my question: Does a big frame show the same characteristic of stiffness, comfort security etc. than a smaller frame. I have been told that big frames are like chewing gum! When could I get a frame in France and what would be the price? Can I get it on line already? Does a big frame looks good, I mean, I don't want to have the felling people are laughing about the design of my big bike! Thank you so much for your answer. Merci

Answer: We've wanted to offer larger (and smaller!) sizes, and now with the new Madone we're doing it! You are right to think about different ride characteristics with different frame sizes. In fact, the designers and engineers of the new Madones attacked this challenge in two ways:
1. Varying tube dimensions: Larger volume tubes with larger frame sizes and smaller tubes with smaller frame sizes.
2. Selective reinforcement: Not just using more carbon to make larger frames thicker, but applying additional carbon in strategic locations in order to keep similar characteristics of stiffness, comfort and security no matter what size Madone you ride.
Without such proportional dimensions and carbon reinforcement it’s not uncommon for large frames to suffer as you mention.

We’ve just started shipping new Trek Madones this week. They’ll be sold in France through our Trek subsidiary. Please give Nick Schafer a call there: 33 562120810.

As for the look, it’s a point of pride that even the big and small Madones have a look similar to the other sizes. That’s one of the reasons Trek has so many talented industrial designers. They spent a lot of effort adjusting the highlights and curves so all the sizes look “right”. I’ve seen a large range of sizes among the new Madones our guests rode in the recent Trek 100 charity ride, and I can tell you in my opinion the big, small and medium Madones all look very good indeed! I hope you’ll get a chance to see for yourself soon at a Trek dealer. –Damon Rinard

Eric

With the new design, how will the bikes fit in traditional travel bike cases?? I ride a 62cm 5500 and am getting ready to upgrade and my bike barely fits in a standard bike case so will we now have to remove the bottom bracket to travel with the new madones to make them fit??? I'm curious if this has been considered. Thanks

Answer: The new Madone's seat mast is a bit taller than ordinary frames, and traveling with the bike was the source of plenty of "discussions" here during the design phase! In the end, we made it as shipping-friendly as possible. Here are a few explanations:
1. Most of the saddle height above the top tube is in the seat mast *cap*, and less in the mast.
2. A size 56 cm and below will usually fit in a normal Trek bike box.
3. Size 62 and below will fit in Trek's "clamshell" box. New Madones are shipped to the dealer in these clamshell boxes, so consider asking your Trek dealer to save the box your bike comes in.
4. Size 64 cm Madones come in a special "Equinox" box. If you'll travel, be sure to get that box.

Even if you don't have one of these boxes, it's pretty easy to remove and replace modern two-piece cranks. The "Net Molded Precision Fit Sockets" in the new Madone's BB don't require any special tools or LocTite, so it's no harder than other bikes.

Jerry Kelly

Along the lines of the Project One bikes, have you considered having a LiveStrong theme paint job on the new Madone?

Answer: Great idea! I'll pass it along to our designers and painters. However, there are no plans yet for Project 1 paint jobs on the new Madone for this model year, sorry! Project 1 is still available for current Madones. -Damon Rinard

Micah Robinson

I was wondering, will the new Madone be available as a fuselage only (frame-fork-seat mast-headset-bottom bracket bearings)? I want to replace my current frame but my Dura Ace parts are perfectly good.

Answer: Yep. The new Madone will be offered for sale as a fuselage only, consisting of frame, fork, headset and seat cap, but no BB. Since the new Madone's integrated BB accepts virtually all makes of "external" bearing cranks, the BB kit specific to the crank you'll use is offered separately: Bontrager, Campagnolo, FSA, Shimano, SRAM, TruVativ, etc.

Currently, first availability for fuselages is planned as follows:
Madone 5.2 (Pro and Performance): late July
Madone 6.9 Performance: September
Madone 6.9 Pro: October
-Damon Rinard

Kate

I saw the question about toe overlap above, just bought a WSD Trek Madone and realized toe overlap is inevitable unless I shrink my feet or stretch my arms. I noticed that on my prior bike there was obviously some toe overlap as well that I was not aware of by looking at the shoes I was wearing that have some black across the top end of each one. Is there an identified measurement as to when toe overlap can be dangerous to the rider?

Answer: Practically speaking there is no hard limit. The less overlap you have, the shorter the time when steering is limited by contact with the shoe, so there is a range of the effect; it's not binary. People vary in how quickly they adapt. I once had a TT bike with about 30 mm of toe overlap that was more annoying than usual...! Still, I never fell, just came close once or twice. I soon got used to the fact and learned to anticipate it: Keeping the "other" foot forward when making tight turns, etc. Thank you for buying a Trek bicycle; hope you enjoy it as much as we enjoyed making it!
- Damon Rinard

Eric

How much does the new Madone weigh? How does it compare to some of the sub 1000 gram frames on the market today? Of course the total weight will be higher due to integrated components, but I'd like to see how it stacks up against some of these other super light frames. Have you done any strength to weight comparisons against other bikes?

Answer: The new Madone “fuselage” weights are compared on the new Madone web site here:
http://www2.trekbikes.com/madone/technology/integration/
Yes, it’s funny how integrated design can lead to a “heavier” frame alone building up into a “lighter” complete bike! In fact the new Madone is about 250 grams lighter than the current one on average.
There’s more info on strength on the new Madone web site on this page:
http://www2.trekbikes.com/madone/technology/strength/
One feature Trek engineers adopted to increase strength to weight ratio is a tapered fork steerer tube. Trek owns Gary Klein’s tapered steerer tube patent and has made good use of the design in the new Madone’s fork to add stiffness and strength while reducing weight.
- Damon Rinard

Tim

Will we see the Disco team riding the new madones at the tour this year?

Answer: Yes. Trek has delivered prototypes to the Discovery Channel Pro cycling Team, and the feedback so far is good! See Ben's post on that subject here:
http://trekroad.typepad.com/trekroad/2007/06/delivering_unma.html
We hope to see a few new Madones under select Discovery riders as early as the Dauphine.
- Damon Rinard

Mel

Are there any colors choice besides white on the Madone that is 30mm higher at the head tube? I would like to buy the Pro-Fit color scheme and wheels on the Performance Fit bike. Thanks Mel Smith

Answer: The 30 mm higher head tube is available on all Madone "Performance Fit" models. Right now the Performance Fit Madones are planned to be available only in these models and colors:
Madone 6.9 in Pearl White
Madone 6.5 in Onyx Carbon / Dark Silver
Madone 5.5 in Onyx Carbon / Red
Madone 5.2 in Onyx Carbon / White
Madone 5.1 in Onyx Carbon / Yellow

...Pro Fit Madones in these models and colors:
Madone 6.9 Pro in Onyx Carbon / Orange
Madone 6.5 Pro in OCLV Red Carbon
Madone 5.5 Pro in OCLV Black Carbon
Madone 5.2 Pro in Carrera Blue

... and WSD Fit Madones in these models and colors:
Madone 6.5 WSD in Pearl White
Madone 5.1 WSD in Blossom Silver

Trek only ships bikes with the specifications listed, but ask your Trek dealer about the wheels - possibly they might be able to swap them, especially while the stock wheels are still new.
- Damon Rinard

Bob Kenneke

Is the front derailuer clamp-on or braze-on and if clamp-on, what size ?
Thanks, bob

Answer: The front derailleur is clamp on, and the diameter is 34.9 mm or 1 38". -Damon Rinard

Dereck Woodward

Having started a year long look for my first carbon frame - I am not an "impulse buyer"! - Trek had written themselves out of my short list thanks to geometry.

Your new "Performance Fit" promptly wrote you back in.

But - why, oh why are we so limited to colour choices?

I just bought an utterly boring Japanese small SUV (mostly because it holds two bikes internally!) Even this mundane vehicle comes in six different colours!

Worse still - I'd rather just buy the frame and equip it with my own choice of components. Nothing against your choice of bars, stem and saddle personally, but I'm the one holding/sitting on them.

So, I either buy a frame and get it all right, or 'buy a bike' and end up tossing a lot of stuff into a corner.

Would it be the end of the Trek world if all your grades of frame were sold separately and in all the colour schemes you must be applying at the factory anyway? I don't mean "Project One" schemes by any other means, just the basic frame colours as per your present website photos.

Except that I suspect I know the answer already...

Maybe you should pop down the road to Waterford's factory and ask them how to paint bikes in different colours? ;-^)

Yours in cycling

Dereck Woodward
Who, thanks to the top tube length, would fit nicely on a 54cm Performance Fit

Answer: Hi Dereck, Great suggestion! I'll pass it along to the Product Manager. No doubt you've already heard (or can imagine) various reasons, such as SKU reduction, dealer stocking quantities, etc. so I won't bore you with that.
Just thinking about your car purchase, I you mentioned they offer six colors, but do they offer 20 sizes? The new Madone comes in 8 Performance Fits, 7 Pro Fits, and 5 WSD Fits. As you pointed out, Trek's back in your consideration thanks to that. :-)

Since you mention you might consider a frameset, here are the planned first availability dates for "fuselages". I realize you're looking for "Performance Fit" but I'm including the Pro fuselages for completeness:

Madone 5.2 Pro: July
Madone 5.2 Performance: July
Madone 6.9 Pro: October
Madone 6.9 Performance: September

Thanks for the comments,
- Damon Rinard

FRANCK

Hi guys,
I can't wait any longer to see that new "weapon" in France! Here is my question: My saddle height is 84,5cm and the difference between the saddle and the handle bar must be 8 cm. What size should I get? 62 or 64? Thanks for your answer. Merci

Answer: Hi Franck, please be patient! I hope you can get a chance to have a look at a new Madone in person soon.

What size? As you already know, your 84.5 cm saddle height should be possible with size 62 or 64 cm. Both sizes require the optional “long” seat post cap to get that high.

How to get to 8 cm of vertical handlebar drop? I made a CAD sketch for your saddle height. I assumed a 130 mm stem (that’s a guess), pointed “down” at 7 degrees. I sketched in the frame stack and frame reach for the 64 cm Madone, and with your seat height you’d need about 30 mm of spacers under the stem. It comes with a 15 mm conical spacer, so you’d add 15 mm of cylindrical spacers. I think the 64 cm is the right size for you.
- Damon Rinard

Kevin

I know this is not the right place to ask this question, but how will Campagnolo slip fit unsealed bearings fit inside the new bottom bracket without a housing to hold in the bearing grease. Will it just be unsealed bearings against the carbon fiber?

Answer: Actually, this is a great place to ask the question.

The new Madone works very well with the Campagnolo Ultra Torque bottom bracket. Here are a few facts to help understand what's going on:

1. To protect the inside bearing faces, every new Madone includes a left and right plastic "top hat" sleeve. Together they span the width of the BB. One telescopes into the other, and each top hat's "brim" rests in a Net Molded (TM) recess in the frame, just inboard of the bearing. These top hats surround the BB axle and seal off the bearings from the inside of the frame. This is the case no matter which crank you may install.

2. Trek offers several different BB kits for various cranks, including one for Campagnolo Ultra Torque. Since Campy's Ultra Torque bearings are slightly further apart than some, Trek's Ultra Torque BB kit includes two small spacers to maintain the spacing between the left and right bearings.

3. The Madone’s “Precision Fit Sockets” (TM) accept the spacers, and the original Campagnolo bearings slip into place.

- Damon Rinard

FRANCK

OK! the design of that beautifull bike inspired me, so i wrote a poem for Trek people.
It 's for you guys and it's free.

I WAS DREAMING ABOUT A BIKE,
BIG ENOUGH TO SAVE MY BACK,
LARGE ENOUGH FOR MY LONG ARMS,
WILD ENOUGH AND FULL OF CHARMS.

AND I SAW IT, SUN IN THE AIR
THE MADONE BIKE, THE TREK WAS THERE,
AND SUDDENLY I SAW MY CHANCE,
TO FINALLY LOOK LIKE A LANCE.

I hope you enjoyed that little proof of respect for your job. Franck(The French fan)

Dave Albert

Will an ERGOMO power meter work with the new BB configuration?

Answer: No, sorry. Only cranks with "external" bearings will work on the new Madone (but of course those bearings will be "internal" in the new Madone's frame).
- Damon Rinard

Matt

Gotta agree. Would love to buy this bike but am not at all crazy about the color schemes on the oclv black pro models. Really like the performance models color schemes. You all should *really* think about moving this into Project One as quickly as possible. Regardless, this looks like a great ride.

Stephen Beville

I would love to get a 2008 madone but I don't think I'll be able to fit one. I'm 6'2" with long limbs and a short torso. Currently I ride a 60cm 2006 madone. My saddle height is 87cm, stem length 130cm. Fit is perfect.

Based on a 87cm saddle height I'd require a 64cm madone with the optional long seatpost adapter! A 64-the reach is way too much.

What do I do? Is Trek going to make longer seat post adapters at some point. My build is not altogether too different from say a Ryder Hesjedal or Michael Barry-I'm really not unusual.

What do I do?

Stephen

Reply: Hi Steven, you're right - with your saddle height you'd need a 64 cm new Madone with the tall cap. That's a high saddle you've got! Right now there are no plans to make a taller seat cap than the optional tall cap already planned. So, yes, there will be some adjustments and checking needed to determine what it might take for you to fit a 64 cm new Madone.

I'm assuming you like your current riding position, so my goal will be to find out what kind of stem might work on a 64 cm new Madone to get the same cockpit stack and reach you have now. Then you can decide how you feel about that, and maybe swap out a stem to test ride a new Madone at your Trek dealer.

Comparing cockpit reach might be easiest using top tube plus stem dimensions. I'm refering to the geometry table here:
(http://trekroad.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/06/05/2008_trek_new_madone_geometry_2.gif) and the geometry table for your current bike on the www.trekbikes.com web site. Top tube plus stem can be a rough indicator; changes in seat tube angle make a small difference in reach. In your case the slightly slacker seat tube on the new Madone pulls the top tube rearward and effectively “shortens” the reach a bit, which is good for your position. Here’s how your current Madone and a 64 cm new madone compare:
60 cm 2007 Madone: 58.2 + 13.0 = 71.2.
64 cm 2008 Madone: 61.0 + 10.5 = 71.5
So with a 105 mm stem, the 64 has about 3 millimeters longer top tube + stem. The very slightly slacker seat angle on the 64 cm frame (0.2 degrees) brings the bars 3 mm closer to you, so cancelling just about perfectly.

Comparing cockpit stack might be most easily done by measuring up to the bottom of your current stem (top of the topmost head set spacer). Then you can see roughly how many spacers would need to be added to the “Frame Stack” dimension in the new Madone’s geometry table above. To get your bike’s stack-to-the-bottom-of-the-stem, measure from the ground up to that point (call it measurement A), then measure from the ground up to the center of your bike’s bottom bracket (call it measurement B), and finally subtract the two ( A – B ) to get stack-to-the-bottom-of-the-stem. This is what you’ll compare to the “Frame Stack” in the geometry table. For the 64 cm new Madone, Frame Stack is 65.3 cm, add 5 mm for the headset top cone to get 65.8 cm, so if your dimension is more than that you could paln to add spacers to make up the difference. If it’s less than that, the handlebars on a new Madone will be higher than what you’re riding now. (unless your stem is currently intalled pointing up, in which case you could point it down to drop the bars about 25 mm).

With this info you should have a rough idea how to begin choosing a stem to install for a test ride.

Hope this helps,

- Damon Rinard

tim culbertson

I was given a 5.2 for Father's Day (lucky man, I know). It is very very nice. But, I need the larger seat cap to be in the same setup as my soon to be retired 5200. My dealer said they're a month out? There's got to a faster way to get out on this new ride?

Tim - tall caps are in production right now. It shouldn't be a month. Keep in touch with your dealer because supplies will be limited at first. -Scott Daubert

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